[Nissan79]

For those wondering where the semi-automated self-driving software tech is being developed, it's not in Japan as you may think. It's in Silicon Valley. Not sure all would agree, but this makes me feel a little better about what we're going to see in the Ariya:

The People behind ProPilot

 

[Mars]

I still refuse to forgive Nissan for promising ProPilot 2.0 and then only having it on the high-end models.

 

[Nissan79]

Yah they definitely are using it as a sell-up feature. Kinda silly it's not an option on the longest range version, since that's the version that would benefit most by hands-free highway driving. Ya that's a line-logic problem with the Ariya lineup in terms of real customer touchpoints - but I'm sure it makes sense for the bean counters 😒.

 

[Mars]

When the car was first announced it was announced as a "this is the car, but the battery pack and motor configuration can be selected depending on what you want," but now it's a, "these options, including many that you really wanted, are now only available with very specific expensive configurations that you may not at all want; fuck you."

I have been obsessing over the Ariya since before it was even officially announced, and this whole launch has absolutely ruined the car for me. We held off on buying a new car for over a year because I was positive that this car was going to be amazing, and it fell on its face with a sound loud enough to wake the dead. So many promises that Nissan refused to uphold. And who pays $46,000 for a new car that has manual seat adjustment for the driver?! And no heated seats included with the extended range model? In 2022?!?!

And they also completely eliminated the $40,000 version of the car, but I bet it'd look more like a Flintstone car than an actual modern vehicle, given how bad the features are on the extended range version.

 

[Nissan79]

Yah I think they may be wanting to keep room in the lineup for the premium Leaf... so maybe they want to keep good separation between the high end of the Leaf line, and the low end of the Ariya. Not sure but this could include a plan where they put ProPilot 2.0 in the premium Leaf offering. So the idea would be if you want ProPilot 2.0 and are upset it's not in the low end of the Ariya lineup, then rejoice, because you can get in the high-end of the Leaf. I dunno just guessing.
I hear ya, the whole 'preconfigured' offerings in the US rollout is a bit disappointing. I'd much rather prefer a base, and then pay for the options packages I prefer. This is what they're doing on the Z, so I don't know why the can't do it for the Ariya.
For me, it's a moot point because AWD is a must have, which automatically puts me at the top pricepoint where "all the things" are already there. I'm not eager to pay $59k, and I'm only willing to do that if the $7500 tax incentive is still in place when I take delivery. If not for that, I'd be looking at the AWD Kia EV6. Nissan needs to be really careful. They aren't Tesla, and by the time Ariyas are hitting the streets in the US, there will be a plethora of other very similar options customers can choose, many of which will be a lower price points and be $7500 eligible. If I were a Nissan executive, I'd be very, very concerned about Kia/Hyundai across the board (not just for EV's). If you haven't seen some of the recent gas offerings from Hyundai, you're missing something.

 

[atreis]

IMO, Hyundau/Kia made a bad choice going with only RWD and AWD. Do people not remember how badly RWD cars perform in the winter?
For me, FWD is a requirement, and because I want to be able to dolly tow it, AWD isn't an option.

 

[Nissan79]

Yes and the Ford Mustang EV is also RWD. I totally agree and also have found that to be a strange decision. Perhaps with the most modern torque vectoring traction control, the snow performance is no longer a problem. I think that's conceivable, but yes I noticed that as well. For the Mustang perhaps RWD makes sense also for the drift crowd who would be drawn more towards the performance side of EV's. I don't think Kia/Hyundai is going to easily attract that same audience.

 

[nexus2nexus]

I still refuse to forgive Nissan for promising ProPilot 2.0 and then only having it on the high-end models.

do you know what the differences are between PP 1.0 and 2.0?

 

[Nissan79]

do you know what the differences are between PP 1.0 and 2.0?

Right off hand for 2.0, I think the eyes/attention-monitoring camera, assisted lane change, ramp-to-ramp hands-free, and map-integration (for speed compensation going into curves/elevation/lane merge, etc) are all 2.0 features.
For 1.0, it's basically just a combination of range-finding dynamic cruise control combined with lane-keep assist. This is a fairly common implementation for alot of modern cars. I don't know but I'm guessing it requires hands to be on the wheel for torque feedback sensing. Not sure exatly though...

Details as follows:

ProPilot 1.0 vs ProPilot 2.0

Yah it looks like 1.0 is just a radar rangefinder combined with a front facing camera for lane control.

2.0 on the other hand has centimeter-accurate GPS, 7 cameras, 5 radars, and 12 sonar sensors. Assuming it's not failure prone, that should enable alot of magic. Keep in mind that ProPilot 2.0 in the Ariya is supposed to get other-the-air f/w updates as well. That is really important actually, if Tesla's experience is any indication.

EDIT: Oops I just saw that the Ariya base package has ProPilot (1.0) but also includes the navi-link feature which adjusts speeds going into highway bends and merge points based on lookahead map data. So that's a bit better than what I mentioned earlier. Sorry I didn't check that before...

 

[Nissan79]

By the way, the whole reason I brought up this "ProPilot 2.0 sw developed in Silicon valley" thread is because I think alot of folks may have thought like myself... and that is, Nissan is not a s/w company (at least not like Tesla). So if it was Nissan Japan, or an Alliance partner doing this work, I'd be a little iffy. But knowing that this is all coming out of the Nissan R&D software center in Silicon Valley, this gives me a bit more confidence about the overall quality of execution and performance/maintenance of the code. I simply do not see Nissan as a s/w company. It's a car company, which is great - let Nissan/Renault do the chassis/motor/battery design. I trust that. But the s/w better be done where s/w is done, and that's Silicon Valley. And by the way I say that as a software engineer myself .

 

[atreis]

For me, it was reading the details of how the system works. They seem to be taking a fairly conservative and safe approach with it. They're not claiming full self-driving or anything like that. It's the next step in the progression... Once you have the ability to adjust speed according to distance from the car in front, brake when necessary, and have lane detection coupled with maps, then being able to operate hands-off within a single lane is the next logical step. The higher end PP2.0 can also detect coming curves (provided by map data), and read speed limit signs (also proven in other systems). So, slowing down some for sharp turns and adjust speed according to those signs is the next logical step... (Unfortunately, my Ariya won't have those latter features.) I personally like that Nissan is moving forward but not in a reckless fashion.

 

[Nissan79]

I agree (with the measured approach, slightly different than Tesla). ProPilot 2.0 compares very well against Cadillac's SuperCruise, which generally is considered the best available today (keep in mind that technically, Tesla's AutoPilot is in beta, so 'availability' comes with alot of pre-conditions).
SuperCruise is only available on 'compatible' highway routes, which may also be a constraint for ProPilot 2.0 (Nissan hasn't said as far as I know).
But SuperCruise can do fully automated highway lane change, so it's basically a handsfree 2-lane ramp-to-ramp system. You can see that Nissan is careful to say single-lane handsfree in ProPilot 2.0 references, and mentions it as 'assisted lane change'; which as I understand it, is still automated, but does require hands to be on the wheel. I actually prefer that I think.

Read about SuperCruise here.

 

[atreis]

SuperCruise is only available on 'compatible' highway routes, which may also be a constraint for ProPilot 2.0 (Nissan hasn't said as far as I know).
But SuperCruise can do fully automated highway lane change, so it's basically a handsfree 2-lane ramp-to-ramp system. You can see that Nissan is careful to say single-lane handsfree in ProPilot 2.0 references, and mentions it as 'assisted lane change'; which as I understand it, is still automated, but does require hands to be on the wheel. I actually prefer that I think.

From this page, it sounds like Nissan's ProPilot 2.0 works a lot like the GM system in that it only works on specific pre-mapped roads:

ProPILOT 2.0 | Innovation | Nissan Motor Corporation Global Website

Nissan’s ProPILOT 2.0: Nissan’s various technologies, including electrification, autonomous drive, connected car & service, mobility service, and energy management, are introduced.

www.nissan-global.com

From that page:

Designed for on-ramp to off-ramp (ramp-to-ramp) highway driving, the new system engages with the vehicle's navigation system to help maneuver the car according to a predefined route on designated roadways.*1

*1: A national expressway as prescribed by the National Expressway Act. A limited highway as prescribed by the Road Act.

If I read it right, one changes lanes by putting hands on wheel and signalling. The car does the rest. I'd rather just have to turn on the signal, but this approach works too.

 

[Nissan79]

Ah cool yes I think you are right regarding the 'designated roadways' wording. Didn't notice that immediately. Also yes your interpretation of the 'assisted' lane change in ProPilot 2.0 matches mine.

 

[nexus2nexus]

Right off hand for 2.0, I think the eyes/attention-monitoring camera, assisted lane change, ramp-to-ramp hands-free, and map-integration (for speed compensation going into curves/elevation/lane merge, etc) are all 2.0 features.
For 1.0, it's basically just a combination of range-finding dynamic cruise control combined with lane-keep assist. This is a fairly common implementation for alot of modern cars. I don't know but I'm guessing it requires hands to be on the wheel for torque feedback sensing. Not sure exatly though...

Details as follows:

ProPilot 1.0 vs ProPilot 2.0

Yah it looks like 1.0 is just a radar rangefinder combined with a front facing camera for lane control.

2.0 on the other hand has centimeter-accurate GPS, 7 cameras, 5 radars, and 12 sonar sensors. Assuming it's not failure prone, that should enable alot of magic. Keep in mind that ProPilot 2.0 in the Ariya is supposed to get other-the-air f/w updates as well. That is really important actually, if Tesla's experience is any indication.

EDIT: Oops I just saw that the Ariya base package has ProPilot (1.0) but also includes the navi-link feature which adjusts speeds going into highway bends and merge points based on lookahead map data. So that's a bit better than what I mentioned earlier. Sorry I didn't check that before...

thanks, these additional upgrades are worth it for me to get the Premier. hoping their OTA is as good as Tesla.

 

[nexus2nexus]

I agree (with the measured approach, slightly different than Tesla). ProPilot 2.0 compares very well against Cadillac's SuperCruise, which generally is considered the best available today (keep in mind that technically, Tesla's AutoPilot is in beta, so 'availability' comes with alot of pre-conditions).
SuperCruise is only available on 'compatible' highway routes, which may also be a constraint for ProPilot 2.0 (Nissan hasn't said as far as I know).
But SuperCruise can do fully automated highway lane change, so it's basically a handsfree 2-lane ramp-to-ramp system. You can see that Nissan is careful to say single-lane handsfree in ProPilot 2.0 references, and mentions it as 'assisted lane change'; which as I understand it, is still automated, but does require hands to be on the wheel. I actually prefer that I think.

Read about SuperCruise here.

I've seen "single lane highway" mentioned when talking about PP but what exactly does that mean? I'm guessing it's not actually referring to a highway with one single lane since those are rare by me (and I'm sure around any city with a decent population). So it must mean... traversing down the highway on only one lane, without the ability to change lanes?

 

[atreis]

I've seen "single lane highway" mentioned when talking about PP but what exactly does that mean? I'm guessing it's not actually referring to a highway with one single lane since those are rare by me (and I'm sure around any city with a decent population). So it must mean... traversing down the highway on only one lane, without the ability to change lanes?

Single lane means it's hands-free only within the lane you're in at the time you activate it. It won't automatically change lanes if traffic in your lane slows down. You have to initiate the lane change by putting your hands on the wheel and activating the turn signal. It will then do the rest of the lane change.

 

[Nissan79]

Single lane means it's hands-free only within the lane you're in at the time you activate it. It won't automatically change lanes if traffic in your lane slows down. You have to initiate the lane change by putting your hands on the wheel and activating the turn signal. It will then do the rest of the lane change.

Yup that's how I read it too. Sure wish Nissan would start showing us more than just static displays of the Ariya. Considering that the initial launch is supposed to be in Japan before it launches in North America, they'll have to start releasing real information soon. It's starting to feel a bit like varporware, even though they've take money for pre-orders.

 

[mtlmonk]

IMO, Hyundau/Kia made a bad choice going with only RWD and AWD. Do people not remember how badly RWD cars perform in the winter?
For me, FWD is a requirement, and because I want to be able to dolly tow it, AWD isn't an option.

RWD with weight most in front is what is causing a car to run badly in winter (snow), hence some people used to carry "extra weight" in the trunk to balance it out.
In a EV, the weight is distributed across the car so running FWD or RWD won't make that much difference. I believe I saw tests run on ID4 with RWD and it performed well in snow.

 

[Nissan79]

Yah that's a good point too. Weight distribution certainly should be better on an EV.