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Does the 80 percent charge rule apply to the Ariya?

5013 Views 40 Replies 17 Participants Last post by  DallasEV
I was talking to a Tesla Model 3-owning friend of mine when he brought up an interesting point. When he got his car he was advised not to charge it to 100% routinely to help preserve the battery so he asked me if I had been given any such warning on my Ariya. The dealer never mentioned anything and since this is my first EV I did some research and apparently yes, many EVs make that recommendation. Ford, for example, states in their manuals apparently to routinely charge the Mach E and Lightning up to only about 80-90% for daily use and only charge to 100% for long trips.

I checked the Ariya's manual and unless I missed something I could not find any such warning. The most I can find was advice that DC fast charging should not be routinely used to get up to 100% but it's level 2 and level 1 charging were fine. That was my understanding before I looked anything up since fast charging is inherently more stressful to the battery.

Also, unlike other EVs I can't even find any setting to limit the charge capacity to lower than 100% whether in the car or on the NissanConnect app. I saw online that early Leaf owners were told to follow that 80% rule and had a limiter they could set but it was apparently dropped in later Leafs. I know that there's a built-in buffer on all EVs where the full capacity isn't really used - the Ariya for example has a 91 kWh pack but just has an 87 kWh effective capacity - so is Nissan just that confident in their battery management and chemistry now that they don't feel the 80% rule is applicable?
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I was talking to a Tesla Model 3-owning friend of mine when he brought up an interesting point. When he got his car he was advised not to charge it to 100% routinely to help preserve the battery so he asked me if I had been given any such warning on my Ariya. The dealer never mentioned anything and since this is my first EV I did some research and apparently yes, many EVs make that recommendation. Ford, for example, states in their manuals apparently to routinely charge the Mach E and Lightning up to only about 80-90% for daily use and only charge to 100% for long trips.

I checked the Ariya's manual and unless I missed something I could not find any such warning. The most I can find was advice that DC fast charging should not be routinely used to get up to 100% but it's level 2 and level 1 charging were fine. That was my understanding before I looked anything up since fast charging is inherently more stressful to the battery.

Also, unlike other EVs I can't even find any setting to limit the charge capacity to lower than 100% whether in the car or on the NissanConnect app. I saw online that early Leaf owners were told to follow that 80% rule and had a limiter they could set but it was apparently dropped in later Leafs. I know that there's a built-in buffer on all EVs where the full capacity isn't really used - the Ariya for example has a 91 kWh pack but just has an 87 kWh effective capacity - so is Nissan just that confident in their battery management and chemistry now that they don't feel the 80% rule is applicable?
Correct. Total capacity is 91 kWh. Net is 87 kWh. It’s perfectly fine to charge up to 100%. I tried doing 100% charge but it takes me 1hr to so so. Hence, it wasn’t worth waiting around for 100%. I do it up to 95% and it takes me about 45 minutes using 350 kW charging station at EVGO.
....is Nissan just that confident in their battery management and chemistry now that they don't feel the 80% rule is applicable?
For the electric vehicle batteries being produced today, and going back to at least 2016, charging to 80% does nothing but cut your range by 20%. Charging at home to 100% all the time, every time, is fine. You'll get the most from your battery and won't cut your miles short.

On the flip side trying to reach 100% while fast charging on a trip takes a rediculous amount of time. You get the highest charge rate to get to about 85% and then the charging speed drops like a rock down into Level 2 speeds. So most will only Level 3 fast charge to about 80-85%, and then leave. Otherwise you'll be sitting at the charging station for 45 minutes trying to shove in that last 15-20%
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Question. Other car batteries have buffers and net/usable capacity. How come those companies say just charge to 80% though? What's the difference with ours?
Question. Other car batteries have buffers and net/usable capacity. How come those companies say just charge to 80% though? What's the difference with ours?
These types of batteries don't like being completely full or completely empty. There isn't a lot of information out there to go by but what I suspect is this; the Ariya is capable of DCFC at rates that are much higher than 130kw (even though the fastest I've seen the car charge is 116kw) but Nissan has decided to program at that level to ensure the flattest curve possible while also not taxing the battery too hard to ensure pack longevity. A second byproduct of this philosophy is the ability to charge the vehicle to full more frequently since battery degradation is less likely due to the care with which they allow the battery to be charged.

Another benefit to being able to charge to full is that they you can actually drive the car places without feeling like you'll be stranded. It is TERRIBLY inefficient. I've only owned an Ariya for a couple of days and it's the winter time in northern Chicagoland but the efficiency is honestly some of the worst I've seen. Love the vehicle though.
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In what way is it inefficient? What would make it more efficient?
In what way is it inefficient? What would make it more efficient?
I'm assuming aerodynamics is what makes it inefficient. Even driving slow for an American (30 - 45 mph) I'm only seeing 3.0 mi/kWh on the highest end. It is not uncommon to see speed limits of 45 or 55 mph on streets here and it just doesn't seem like it has the ability to cut through the air. I was driving a MYLR for the last two weeks prior to buying my Ariya and my efficiency was dramatically different (complete transparency - I was in Texas with MYLR so the climate was much different). As I said, maybe it's a winter thing but it's not THAT cold for this area (mid-30s F) & time of year but it has been quite windy.
Temperature does make a massive difference in battery performance. With our winters on the prairies up here, we are going to see range loss in the ballpark of 40% - which is what I've seen on my Ariya over the last few weeks, and what my parent sees on his Model 3.
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I have a 2017 Bolt as well as my Ariya Premiere. In winter with the heater on, I get 3 mi/kWh in the Bolt, but in summer without the heater or AC I get over 4 mi/kWh. My Ariya so far is running around 3 without heater. I recently drove back to Sacramento from Donner Pass and got over 10 mi/kWh. Gravity sucks.
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I have a 2017 Bolt as well as my Ariya Premiere. In winter with the heater on, I get 3 mi/kWh in the Bolt, but in summer without the heater or AC I get over 4 mi/kWh. My Ariya so far is running around 3 without heater. I recently drove back to Sacramento from Donner Pass and got over 10 mi/kWh. Gravity sucks.
That's almost completely down a mountain! 🤣
For the electric vehicle batteries being produced today, and going back to at least 2016, charging to 80% does nothing but cut your range by 20%. Charging at home to 100% all the time, every time, is fine. You'll get the most from your battery and won't cut your miles short.
What data supports the 80% recommendation not being required for batteries produced from 2016 on? VW currently recommends 80%, Ford recommends 90%. Tesla's current model still states:
"For regular use, we recommend keeping your car set within the 'Daily' range bracket, up to approximately 90%. Charging up to 100% is best saved for when you are preparing for a longer trip. You can adjust how full the battery charges from the charge settings menu."

I've been trying to find information on this from reputable sourced and did come across this article stating certain '22 Tesla Model 3s have lithium iron phosphate (LFP) battery cells that can be charged to 100% without risk of degradation.

1. I would like Nissan to provide some definitive and scientific data on the battery usage and degradation other than "charge it to 100%, use that range!"
2. I wish you could set a limit in the car or Nissan Connect app for those who would like to be conservative until more data is available.
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Tesla's current model still states:
"For regular use, we recommend keeping your car set within the 'Daily' range bracket, up to approximately 90%. Charging up to 100% is best saved for when you are preparing for a longer trip. You can adjust how full the battery charges from the charge settings menu."
I understand they don't have a top buffer on the Tesla, so they don't want people to charge to the top unless they going to use it by driving.
I understand they don't have a top buffer on the Tesla, so they don't want people to charge to the top unless they going to use it by driving.
Tesla absolutely has a buffer. I am not aware of any ev manufacturer that does not have one.

There are a thousand factors for battery degradation. Percent charged is one of them. The longer you sit at high or very low state of charge the more wear it does to the battery. Will that matter more than any of the other factors? I Believe the jury is still out on that question. I really don't understand why Nissan wouldn't allow separate charge stop limits. My wife and I have an ID 4 and a model Y, we keep both of our cars charged to 80% as that is more than enough range for our day-to-day driving and we just plug in every night anyways. It wouldn't make sense for us to charge up to 100% if it's causing any extra wear on the vehicle at all since it's not practically useful for us to have the extra range.
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Based on the battery specs for the Model 3, it has a gross/useable of 82/77 kWh providing a ~6% margin built-in and still recommends 90% charge.
Ariya has a gross/useable of 91/87 kWh providing a ~4.5% margin built-in.
Tesla absolutely has a buffer. I am not aware of any ev manufacturer that does not have one.

There are a thousand factors for battery degradation. Percent charged is one of them. The longer you sit at high or very low state of charge the more wear it does to the battery. Will that matter more than any of the other factors? I Believe the jury is still out on that question. I really don't understand why Nissan wouldn't allow separate charge stop limits. My wife and I have an ID 4 and a model Y, we keep both of our cars charged to 80% as that is more than enough range for our day-to-day driving and we just plug in every night anyways. It wouldn't make sense for us to charge up to 100% if it's causing any extra wear on the vehicle at all since it's not practically useful for us to have the extra range.
With 8 yrs 100, 000 mile battery warranty, why worry about degradation? EVs will plunge in value as battery technology improves. After all, no one is using 56K dial up any longer.

I keep my charge at random levels (10, 15, 20, 25%) but will charge up to 95% at most times. It isn't worth sitting around for another 5% since it will take another 15 mins to get to 95%>
Yes, i took the warranty into consideration, but I would like to maintain every mile of range I can get. There are other factors and normal aging that will cause degradation. So if the car would just stop at 90% to potentially reduce degradation, why not give this option and make it up to the user??

We have two destinations, one at 220 miles and the other at 250 (which I don't know if we will attempt, the only charger is midpoint). But every mile counts for several of our standard weekend destinations.
Yes, i took the warranty into consideration, but I would like to maintain every mile of range I can get. There are other factors and normal aging that will cause degradation. So if the car would just stop at 90% to potentially reduce degradation, why not give this option and make it up to the user??

We have two destinations, one at 220 miles and the other at 250 (which I don't know if we will attempt, the only charger is midpoint). But every mile counts for several of our standard weekend destinations.
Enjoy the drive and worry less about range anxiety due to 20/80 rule. (Silly in my book).

My father still owns iPhone6S. Never does he worry about anything with his phone. Techs depreciate so fast that there's absolutely no reason to baby it.
Enjoy the drive and worry less about range anxiety due to 20/80 rule. (Silly in my book).

My father still owns iPhone6S. Never does he worry about anything with his phone. Techs depreciate so fast that there's absolutely no reason to baby it.
I wouldnt call what my wife and i do for charging "babying it". With 80% charge, we get more than enough miles per day to use and since we have the comvenience of home charging, it takes maybe 30 seconds to plug our vehicles in at night. This is accomplished through a simple selection in the vehicle software that takes maybe 10 seconds to set. Then on the rare occassions that we need more range for a road trip we will set it back to 100%. It seems like a relatively simple thing to add in the software, and giving users of your product more choice seems like a great idea to me. If you don't care about degradation go ahead and charge it to 100% every night. Or if you are like my wife and myself who put about 20,000 miles a year on our vehicles and like to use them for at least 10 years, it makes sense to try to limit the degradation as much as possible.
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I wouldnt call what my wife and i do for charging "babying it". With 80% charge, we get more than enough miles per day to use and since we have the comvenience of home charging, it takes maybe 30 seconds to plug our vehicles in at night. This is accomplished through a simple selection in the vehicle software that takes maybe 10 seconds to set. Then on the rare occassions that we need more range for a road trip we will set it back to 100%. It seems like a relatively simple thing to add in the software, and giving users of your product more choice seems like a great idea to me. If you don't care about degradation go ahead and charge it to 100% every night. Or if you are like my wife and myself who put about 20,000 miles a year on our vehicles and like to use them for at least 10 years, it makes sense to try to limit the degradation as much as possible.
You certainly have the luxury to be able to charge from home at any time. I try to spend as little time as possible at EVGO to charge my Ariya. Because of it, I charge it up to 95% level. This will give me just about 300miles of driving for one week and not have to worry about it again for another week.

20/80 rule will drive me crazy due to limited range. The last thing I want is to visit EVGO twice a week.

When we rented the M3 for a few days, we were told not to drop it below 10% and not to charge it above 90%. Oh boy, we had a horrible experience doing local road trips to Ronald Reagan Museum/Malibu Beach for one day, UCLA/Westwood/LA Lakers Crypto Arena for another day, and Palm Springs/Joshua Tree for another day. Each day, we had to STOP twice to charge up the M3. It didn't help that on Hwy 10, there was a slope going uphill with headwinds.... BAMM, we lost range almost immediately.

The last thing I want is to baby something knowing it will depreciate in value. In 2 years, we will be talking about 500 mile battery range. Morse Law at play here.
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Its not babying to utilize something based on its design specifications. I don't feel Nissan has provided that, so I am just asking for a simple capability to limit the charge if the user wants that. I'm not saying everyone has to do that. If Nissan can provide information that refutes the margin recommendation for most EVs (including the Leaf), I'll be happy to charge to 100% every night.

10% of 300 is 30. I don't really follow your example. If you need full range for certain plans, charge fully. If you drive 300 miles of driving in a week and you charge to 90% you will charge every 6.5 days instead of 7. If you have some constraint where you can't charge at home to get to the next weekend and make it to your 7 day requirement to maximize EVGo, i'm not sure what to say.

And its Moore's Law, not Morse Law. This doesn't apply Li-Ion cells, but transistors.
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